This was fascinating! In short, POV is a tool, tricky, but can be playful…? I am trying to focus on the playful part, as to not to be intimidated by the tricky aspect of POV. I loved your comment that all rules are meant to be broken. But I suppose you need to familiarise yourself with the rules first…? I’ll come back to this masterclass! Thank you!!
Wonderful quote from Welty! So true. I love your (acknowledged!) contradiction of yourself near the end, Mary. That's a key point. In film (camera angle) POV, there is the prohibition against "crossing the axis," which is the 180-degree axis that reverses visual perspective. It's completely disorienting. Generally speaking, don't, and filmmakers don't. But it can be done, if the director knows how to do it for a given context. In my more prosaic teaching of writing, when young college students are always looking for hard, fast rules to guide them past having to think for themselves, I have, from time to time, very modestly propounded (I sometimes play a cocksure egoist in the classroom) what I label "Adler's Rule." the only rule, I assure students they need to know: always know what you're doing and why you're doing it. I let them consider how daunting that one rule actually is. More creatively, now, I might add, "also, *how* you're going to do it."
I'd love to see the Elizabeth Tallent story. Popping the POV would certainly take a great deal of mastery to know how and when to do ti.
What Tolstoy pulls off in AK is that he's omniscient but I don't think we're ever aware of him. We're dealing with Oblonsky's affair before we have time to consider the god-like voice of the opening line.
Close third does allow you a bit of leeway I think because your protagonist can attribute thoughts and emotions to others. Something I find myself doing. Ceaseless internal dialogue can't be about myself all the time. Thanks for this valuable reply.
Yes, indeed--and another reason that I think you could write short story the way Munro began and continued with the quotidian aspects of her daily life. Talent story is in your email, coming shortly.
Thank you as always, Mary and Eleanor, for this video series. This one ressonated a lot with me as I'm currently working on a horror novel that features alternating, 3rd person limited POVs. I chose this structure because I thought it would help with building suspense (and I think it has) but I've also heard feedback from a reader that they wanted to hear more from one particlar POV - they wanted that particular POV to be the protagonist. I'm also reflecting on Eleanor's suggestion of maybe limiting it to 3 POVs.
And I was glad that Kundera was mentioned as I'm currently reading his novel "Identity". He alternates each chapter between two POVs - a couple - with really interesting results.
This was so helpful, Mary, a valuable resource. I’m afraid I was a bit lazy in my shorthand use of the word, “feminine,” without explaining that I meant it in a Jungian sense. As in, an energy that all humans have, ideally balanced with “masculine” qualities. In a patriarchal culture, empathy and intuition are devalued, in favor of, say, power and control (to cite examples of unhealthy, unbalanced masculinity). I’m interested in how a healthy balance can show up in literature both in content and form. I think I understand from both your responses that multiple POV, when used with intention and restraint, can be a way to engender empathy.
Wonderful reply and super explanation of your shorthand--I so agree with you, dear Julie. Thank you so for participating in our effort to discuss This Writing Life. I love your Substack and hope that all who land here click on your "link of hope" in the essay. xo ~ Mary
In my novel, The Trailer Park Rules, every chapter is in the head of a different character. Chapter 1: Jonesy. Chapter 2: Kaitlin. Chapter 3: Nancy. And so on. There is no main protagonist. What I personally love about this approach is that you do read about various events as interpreted by different characters. You as reader sometimes understand the situation in ways you know the characters don't, because you have been in the other person's head. To me, that's how real life is. We all make assumptions and never know when we're wrong. Another writer who did this in a slightly different way than I did was Adelle Waldman in Help Wanted. I've been saying her book is about poor people at work and mine is about poor people at home. Her people could easily go home to my trailer park, and my trailer park residents could easily get a job at her store!
This was fascinating! In short, POV is a tool, tricky, but can be playful…? I am trying to focus on the playful part, as to not to be intimidated by the tricky aspect of POV. I loved your comment that all rules are meant to be broken. But I suppose you need to familiarise yourself with the rules first…? I’ll come back to this masterclass! Thank you!!
Oh, so glad, Imola. Hope you take the course too! Would love to be in conversation with you! xo M.
Have I missed the information on the course? What course? Will look for it!
Here's the link: https://marytabor.substack.com/s/write-it-how-to-get-started and it's for established writers and new writers. Only a small part of it is paid ---most of it is free.
Thank you Mary! I have subscribed! :) Loved your latest personal essay and this craft talk on POV so I am officially a fan :)
Wonderful quote from Welty! So true. I love your (acknowledged!) contradiction of yourself near the end, Mary. That's a key point. In film (camera angle) POV, there is the prohibition against "crossing the axis," which is the 180-degree axis that reverses visual perspective. It's completely disorienting. Generally speaking, don't, and filmmakers don't. But it can be done, if the director knows how to do it for a given context. In my more prosaic teaching of writing, when young college students are always looking for hard, fast rules to guide them past having to think for themselves, I have, from time to time, very modestly propounded (I sometimes play a cocksure egoist in the classroom) what I label "Adler's Rule." the only rule, I assure students they need to know: always know what you're doing and why you're doing it. I let them consider how daunting that one rule actually is. More creatively, now, I might add, "also, *how* you're going to do it."
So wise and a terrific addition, Jay, to what we both tried to explain: Point of view with all its complexities.
Mary,
I'd love to see the Elizabeth Tallent story. Popping the POV would certainly take a great deal of mastery to know how and when to do ti.
What Tolstoy pulls off in AK is that he's omniscient but I don't think we're ever aware of him. We're dealing with Oblonsky's affair before we have time to consider the god-like voice of the opening line.
Close third does allow you a bit of leeway I think because your protagonist can attribute thoughts and emotions to others. Something I find myself doing. Ceaseless internal dialogue can't be about myself all the time. Thanks for this valuable reply.
Yes, indeed--and another reason that I think you could write short story the way Munro began and continued with the quotidian aspects of her daily life. Talent story is in your email, coming shortly.
Thank you as always, Mary and Eleanor, for this video series. This one ressonated a lot with me as I'm currently working on a horror novel that features alternating, 3rd person limited POVs. I chose this structure because I thought it would help with building suspense (and I think it has) but I've also heard feedback from a reader that they wanted to hear more from one particlar POV - they wanted that particular POV to be the protagonist. I'm also reflecting on Eleanor's suggestion of maybe limiting it to 3 POVs.
And I was glad that Kundera was mentioned as I'm currently reading his novel "Identity". He alternates each chapter between two POVs - a couple - with really interesting results.
Oh, so glad, Ollie, that our ramblings helped you. Fascinating topic for us writers.
This was so helpful, Mary, a valuable resource. I’m afraid I was a bit lazy in my shorthand use of the word, “feminine,” without explaining that I meant it in a Jungian sense. As in, an energy that all humans have, ideally balanced with “masculine” qualities. In a patriarchal culture, empathy and intuition are devalued, in favor of, say, power and control (to cite examples of unhealthy, unbalanced masculinity). I’m interested in how a healthy balance can show up in literature both in content and form. I think I understand from both your responses that multiple POV, when used with intention and restraint, can be a way to engender empathy.
Wonderful reply and super explanation of your shorthand--I so agree with you, dear Julie. Thank you so for participating in our effort to discuss This Writing Life. I love your Substack and hope that all who land here click on your "link of hope" in the essay. xo ~ Mary
Awww! Thanks so much, Mary! I really enjoy your master classes.
OK, seeing this line here delighted me: “All happy families are like one another; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.”
That's because the tagline right on the front of my novel is:
"All wealthy families are alike; each poor family is poor in its own way."
— Leo Tolstoy, if he had written about a trailer park
Sounds fascinating, Michelle. Glad you posted here and below.
Thank you. I'm very, very proud of this book.
In my novel, The Trailer Park Rules, every chapter is in the head of a different character. Chapter 1: Jonesy. Chapter 2: Kaitlin. Chapter 3: Nancy. And so on. There is no main protagonist. What I personally love about this approach is that you do read about various events as interpreted by different characters. You as reader sometimes understand the situation in ways you know the characters don't, because you have been in the other person's head. To me, that's how real life is. We all make assumptions and never know when we're wrong. Another writer who did this in a slightly different way than I did was Adelle Waldman in Help Wanted. I've been saying her book is about poor people at work and mine is about poor people at home. Her people could easily go home to my trailer park, and my trailer park residents could easily get a job at her store!