I love the hard road to success stories. And I love literary magazines. A healthy society is very overcrowded with LM's and underpopulated with tabloid news rags. Shame it's the opposite right now.
Thanks for the list too. Now i just have to learn to take myself seriously enough to start sending...
Jonathan, Long reply: I am reading you and you should be sending every day!
Have to admit though that even though that was my start (see my website) and still being published in them, I am finding it harder to be found because of my skin color, my age and my faith. Not saying this isn't fair--only saying this: It's almost always been a 30-rejections-to-one acceptance statistic--and that seems to be getting worse.
"Lifeboat" on my site, a prime example. I gave up as the anniversary of my son's death approached. Posting the lyric essay on Substack was the better choice: more reads and comments than most anything I've done here and all that has helped with the grief, also a difficult subject.
Regarding my view, well, it's a little difficult because I'm outside of the American cultural milieu, so I don't have a reliable intuition about the US racial, ageist or religious currents and which way they are flowing, explicitly or subtly.
I do think that discrimination of a sort is happening (without doubt) as most of the so-called Western world becomes increasingly marketised, resulting in, not only less funding and grant support for the Arts, but worse, a kind of lowering of status and respect for all Artistic pursuits, and thus opportunities for writers and poets and playwrights and all sorts of beautiful and worthy human activities.
Is Substack then a reliable and worthy new platform on which to showcase work? Well, I guess there are pros and cons. I saw the interview you did with Kimberly (and loved it) and I most likely would have missed your work without Substack.
And I'm very much in favour of Substack reducing the gatekeepers and hindrances to being accepted or read (you most certainly would never have come across me without Substack), which means that wonderful and heartfelt human condition pieces like your piece "Lifeboat" can gain wide readership, and bypass the shortsightedness of gatekeepers and their trends.
On the other hand, not only is Substack a tech platform and is thus on the same shaky ground as say, Twitter, meaning any imbecile with a few billion can destroy it (and all of us with it), but it also means that not only does our (mostly unpaid) work support the platform (techno-based voluntary slavery?), but it also tends to funnel our writing into a platform-friendly style - shorter more easily digested pieces that tend toward likes and restacks rather than say, provocative deep and thoughtful pieces. Of course these exist, but generally speaking, as Marshall Mcluhan might have said, the medium is the message, to some degree.
So I have mixed feelings. I love the fact I can directly have a fascinating conversation with someone as wonderful as yourself, I love the lack of gatekeeping (although course a form exists), etc. etc. but all tech platforms have their price.
Ultimately, if social values and status for the Arts don't change I think this is the best we can expect under the circumstances, and I'm on board. But I would prefer a world where there was more real support and opportunity for writers to make lots of mistakes and develop their style and personality without fear of any kind of discrimination.
I hope this makes sense and apologies for the long-windedness. Just think of it as my gentle rebellion against Substack length comment s;)
I agree with virtually all you are saying. Anther long reply follows in this excellent exchange before nightfall likely sends you to bed in Sweden. The problem with Substack becoming what I like to call the "new literary magazine" is that Chris Best, et al, are tilting it towards politics, and they're soliciting paid sources to come onboard and bring their subscribers.
So, at Sarah Fay's advice--I did a one-on-one with her--I tried to go paid without as she says "begging" on _Who by Fire_. So, I did that in my latest post on the serial novel: https://marytabor.substack.com/p/who-by-fire-a-serial-novel-add. Nothing happened and, in fact, one paid subscriber unsubscribed from paid--not that that means much. But I have little hope on that score. And I'm staying for the long haul.
What I've found here is a literary community that is severely lacking in Los Angeles, maybe anywhere in this Internet world.
I found you, one of the most generous, funny and eloquent writers on here. How would we have found each other otherwise? NOT. So that's a big deal to me. Similarly, I would never have discovered Kimberly Warner, a treasure, or Alisa Kennedy Jones who now has created a publishing company that will publish Kimberly's memoir.
Now what I want most is to get you, incredibly deep-reader you, as a subscriber. Okay, I'm begging, not for money but for you as a reader. A big quid pro quo will follow because what I've found here is that in this small literary community that may not be making much money, connection counts and give both hope and greater awareness of what's worth time.
You're right about nightfall rolling me bedwards, but before I do I can't help but reply, even if briefer than I'd like.
Totally agree about the uncertainty in Chris Best et al's direction, it's unsettling indeed. Especially (for me) the lurch away from the written word toward TokTok style video. Let's see where this ends.
And I also found that a paywall was the best way to clear a room, fast. I basically make everything free and just ask people to pay with a gentle "The Crow is truly a labor of love - would you consider supporting me by going paid?" on the subscribe button thingy. I think Sarah Fays advice works brilliantly for Substacks selling advice or support or some (semi) tangible service, but it falls short for say my kind of writing, short stories, contemplations, creative non-fiction etc. etc. Anyway...I live in poverty, er, I mean hope :)
Completely agree about the benefits of a literary community and the network capacity of this platform, both very powerful, valuable and enjoyable.
And I will with great pleasure subscribe to your substacks. I honestly thought I had!
And I'd be absolutely thrilled to write for Inner Life Collaborative substack! I will DM you over the weekend, (and subscribe to that one too).
Now. Sleep. It's been a pleasure and thanks Mary, I appreciate this very much.
I watched a really good HBO documentary on Susan Sontag last night and she's another one who could be added to your list, Mary. All her initial essays and short stories were published in literary journals and magazines.
Thanks for pointing me in the direction of this post, Mary. Like others, I love your passion for literature and never ending encouragement for others to get involved, get published.
I've noticed a few newsletters here on Substack which focus on lit mags (news, how to submit to them, etc.) Very interesting and useful information. It's very different from here in Brazil, where there's a lot of illiteracy, lack of money and lack of access to bookshops, etc. I'm amazed at the amount of lit mags in the U.S. alone!
A compendium of accomplishment that I will always remember as I continue writing and seeking my 3rd published story (in a small literary mag. You have become this octogenarian’s mentor. Thank you.
This is an important question, one I've wrestled with as more and more magazines charge a reading fee. Perhaps I'm turning into a curmudgeon, but I feel that paying for postage and supplies was not the same. The understanding was that neither writer nor editor were being paid, and the playing field was essentially level. Art was the focus.
Now that submission fees have been tied to compensation for staff, it's a different kind of relationship, one that has grown increasingly unequal as the rate of submissions has skyrocketed with the ease of paperless methods like Submittable. I read earlier this year that many aspiring writers aim for 200+ rejections from magazines every year. With the typical $3 reading fee, that's real money that MFA students don't have. I can afford it, but it makes me grumpy. It feels much more transactional, especially when the compensation for publication is typically nothing but contributor copies. Many of the writers you cite grew up in a culture that fostered relationships between writers and editors. Now it seems like editors feel besieged by submissions from writers who don't even read the publications they're submitting to. Writers feel lost in the shuffle. As a result, publication is more like a Tinder date (possibly an unfair analogy) than a mutually respectful artistic collaboration. I say this as someone who has had plenty of success with literary magazines.
I view all of this differently after leaving academia. Typically I hear nothing from an editor after an acceptance. I was not even notified recently when one of my essays went live online at the Los Angeles Review. The non-exclusive contract with them allowed me to almost immediately redistribute it through Substack, and I'm certain that more people read it and engaged with it there. I've always viewed self-publishing with some suspicion, but I'm now feeling like the authors you listed above might have been better served by a platform like this. Did they need to toil in obscurity and loneliness and self-doubt to earn their stripes? Did this make them better writers in the end? I'm not sure about that (genuinely unsure). Plenty of unresolved questions for me, but I think the world has changed significantly since someone like Malamud was cutting his teeth, and even more profoundly since T.C. Boyle broke into his own. Substack has given me an important ballast against the loneliness and alienation that comes with writing for literary magazines. I'm not sure yet if it can be a substitute for that altogether?
Enjoyed reading your argument Joshua - completely agree. I'm currently reading Virginia Woolf's biography and also a selection of her short stories. I enjoyed learning that she started her own publishing house, Hogarth Press, with her husband and decided to self-publish her short stories through it as well as her third novel (and later work). To great acclaim! The landscape has changed so much since then but I'd like to think we are all part of her lineage when we choose platforms like Substack to publish our work.
However, I still hope lit mags will continue to exist and attract writers who care for their manifestos. I've even noticed a few here, too.
Ah, Virginia Woolf--yes, can we even imagine the fact that she may have needed a publishing house? But then I think that was Leonard Woolf's idea. Let me know if you find out otherwise.
Yes, you're right! It was Leonard's idea, which she embraced. And her sister Vanessa created woodcuts to go along with the stories.
They had very little money at that point and I think it was a way to also try to improve their finances by taking more ownership of what was published.
Joshua, A powerful argument. I have a short story circulating now. I remain unsure about posting my fiction here--from my short story collection _The Woman Who Never Cooked_. I do plan in the future to post my memoir _(Re)Making Love_ -- but may need a separate page to do that. I need to figure that out.
The lit mag world is still, I hear, read by agents, but it's also clear that the publishing houses are pretty much, meaning almost all, owned by Bertelsmann. So, what to do if the author is not-so-famed that Substack will solicit and pay to join?
I enjoyed reading this, Mary. The thing that has always put me off pitching to literary magazines is the length of time it takes between acceptance and publication. I can never wait to see my work in print!
Terry, that problem seems to be getting even worse as readers of literary magazines are small and staffs, always subjective, and too often students in MFA programs or undergraduates. I was once the co-editor of _The Journal_ and discovered in the discarded slush pile a story by Stephen Dixon. I recognized the voice as soon as I read the first page--took it to my editor who couldn't believe he'd sent, let alone that I'd found it. The story we published later appeared in an award winning collection of his stories.
But the key is to simultaneously submit and tier the send outs. Statistics on acceptances are something like 35 to 1 though I've had better success than that--still, the process is difficult and discouraging. I do agree.
Thanks. I'm not sure what it means to tier one's submissions. Do you mean pitch to different types of literary magazines at the same time? I shall study the directory, which looks incredibly useful. Interesting that you mentioned Nicholson Baker. I hadn't heard of him until recently, when Sherman Alexie recommended his novel Mezzanine. I have borrowed it from the library, and am enjoying it immensely. I especially love the footnotes, which remind me of David Foster Wallace's work. Stephen Dixon: amazing! well done
The loss of David Foster Wallace was heartbreaking, Terry. Still worth searching for his essay "Shipping Out" and the controversy that ensued when Jonathan Franzen, his friend, did something pretty awful after Foster had died--we can discuss privately, perhaps. Tim O'Brien also footnoted in _In the Lake of the Woods_, quite stunningly.
I have a sense that we share the deep love of literature, Terry.
What I mean about tiering: One ranks the literary magazines, best or most read or pays, and sends to those first. Second round, go a step down. Worth a try, Terry.
Hi Mary, thanks. Shipping Out is one of my all-time favourite articles. I think it was the first one of his I'd read, and it's featured in a book I have called The David Foster Wallace Reader. I hadn't heard of In the Lake of the Woods, but it sounds fascinating. Another one for the tbr list!
Yes, definitely a deep love of literature. So nice to meet like-minded people!
Thank you for the explanation of 'tiering'. I'll see if I think I have something to offer them.
Your posts, Mary, ate like a smorgasbord of treats! Love this.
Thanks again for introducing me to John Updike's and Katrina Kenison's Best American Short Stories of the Century where I discovered extraordinary stories and authors like Pam Houston. I recently found The Best American Short Stories 1984. What a gem! I can't even give you a favourite as they were all so good.
Short stories are incredibly hard, like Flash, to write. Maybe I'm wrong, but shorts often rely, more so than the novel, on title and first lines to keep the reader reading.
Just this morning, I was reading about Jhumpa Lahiri and thinking I would love to read her work in Italian. Unaccustomed Earth, as well, seems to be something I can relate to.
I applaud all the incredible work literary magazines do, at times unpaid. They are a pivotal part of the writer's journey.
Again, thanks so much for posting, and in particular, this post today.
Eloquently stated, Isabelle. Hoping you will share this post and my newsletter. "Word of mouth" helps so much with this effort--joy that it is on its own. xo Mary
I love the hard road to success stories. And I love literary magazines. A healthy society is very overcrowded with LM's and underpopulated with tabloid news rags. Shame it's the opposite right now.
Thanks for the list too. Now i just have to learn to take myself seriously enough to start sending...
Jonathan, Long reply: I am reading you and you should be sending every day!
Have to admit though that even though that was my start (see my website) and still being published in them, I am finding it harder to be found because of my skin color, my age and my faith. Not saying this isn't fair--only saying this: It's almost always been a 30-rejections-to-one acceptance statistic--and that seems to be getting worse.
"Lifeboat" on my site, a prime example. I gave up as the anniversary of my son's death approached. Posting the lyric essay on Substack was the better choice: more reads and comments than most anything I've done here and all that has helped with the grief, also a difficult subject.
Lesson in this? Would love your view.
Thanks Mary, that's encouraging indeed.
Regarding my view, well, it's a little difficult because I'm outside of the American cultural milieu, so I don't have a reliable intuition about the US racial, ageist or religious currents and which way they are flowing, explicitly or subtly.
I do think that discrimination of a sort is happening (without doubt) as most of the so-called Western world becomes increasingly marketised, resulting in, not only less funding and grant support for the Arts, but worse, a kind of lowering of status and respect for all Artistic pursuits, and thus opportunities for writers and poets and playwrights and all sorts of beautiful and worthy human activities.
Is Substack then a reliable and worthy new platform on which to showcase work? Well, I guess there are pros and cons. I saw the interview you did with Kimberly (and loved it) and I most likely would have missed your work without Substack.
And I'm very much in favour of Substack reducing the gatekeepers and hindrances to being accepted or read (you most certainly would never have come across me without Substack), which means that wonderful and heartfelt human condition pieces like your piece "Lifeboat" can gain wide readership, and bypass the shortsightedness of gatekeepers and their trends.
On the other hand, not only is Substack a tech platform and is thus on the same shaky ground as say, Twitter, meaning any imbecile with a few billion can destroy it (and all of us with it), but it also means that not only does our (mostly unpaid) work support the platform (techno-based voluntary slavery?), but it also tends to funnel our writing into a platform-friendly style - shorter more easily digested pieces that tend toward likes and restacks rather than say, provocative deep and thoughtful pieces. Of course these exist, but generally speaking, as Marshall Mcluhan might have said, the medium is the message, to some degree.
So I have mixed feelings. I love the fact I can directly have a fascinating conversation with someone as wonderful as yourself, I love the lack of gatekeeping (although course a form exists), etc. etc. but all tech platforms have their price.
Ultimately, if social values and status for the Arts don't change I think this is the best we can expect under the circumstances, and I'm on board. But I would prefer a world where there was more real support and opportunity for writers to make lots of mistakes and develop their style and personality without fear of any kind of discrimination.
I hope this makes sense and apologies for the long-windedness. Just think of it as my gentle rebellion against Substack length comment s;)
I agree with virtually all you are saying. Anther long reply follows in this excellent exchange before nightfall likely sends you to bed in Sweden. The problem with Substack becoming what I like to call the "new literary magazine" is that Chris Best, et al, are tilting it towards politics, and they're soliciting paid sources to come onboard and bring their subscribers.
So, at Sarah Fay's advice--I did a one-on-one with her--I tried to go paid without as she says "begging" on _Who by Fire_. So, I did that in my latest post on the serial novel: https://marytabor.substack.com/p/who-by-fire-a-serial-novel-add. Nothing happened and, in fact, one paid subscriber unsubscribed from paid--not that that means much. But I have little hope on that score. And I'm staying for the long haul.
What I've found here is a literary community that is severely lacking in Los Angeles, maybe anywhere in this Internet world.
I found you, one of the most generous, funny and eloquent writers on here. How would we have found each other otherwise? NOT. So that's a big deal to me. Similarly, I would never have discovered Kimberly Warner, a treasure, or Alisa Kennedy Jones who now has created a publishing company that will publish Kimberly's memoir.
Now what I want most is to get you, incredibly deep-reader you, as a subscriber. Okay, I'm begging, not for money but for you as a reader. A big quid pro quo will follow because what I've found here is that in this small literary community that may not be making much money, connection counts and give both hope and greater awareness of what's worth time.
I also would like you to write for https://innerlifecollaborative.substack.com -- I'm booked through spring of next year, but DM me if you want to get on my schedule.
You're right about nightfall rolling me bedwards, but before I do I can't help but reply, even if briefer than I'd like.
Totally agree about the uncertainty in Chris Best et al's direction, it's unsettling indeed. Especially (for me) the lurch away from the written word toward TokTok style video. Let's see where this ends.
And I also found that a paywall was the best way to clear a room, fast. I basically make everything free and just ask people to pay with a gentle "The Crow is truly a labor of love - would you consider supporting me by going paid?" on the subscribe button thingy. I think Sarah Fays advice works brilliantly for Substacks selling advice or support or some (semi) tangible service, but it falls short for say my kind of writing, short stories, contemplations, creative non-fiction etc. etc. Anyway...I live in poverty, er, I mean hope :)
Completely agree about the benefits of a literary community and the network capacity of this platform, both very powerful, valuable and enjoyable.
And I will with great pleasure subscribe to your substacks. I honestly thought I had!
And I'd be absolutely thrilled to write for Inner Life Collaborative substack! I will DM you over the weekend, (and subscribe to that one too).
Now. Sleep. It's been a pleasure and thanks Mary, I appreciate this very much.
I watched a really good HBO documentary on Susan Sontag last night and she's another one who could be added to your list, Mary. All her initial essays and short stories were published in literary journals and magazines.
Thanks for pointing me in the direction of this post, Mary. Like others, I love your passion for literature and never ending encouragement for others to get involved, get published.
I've noticed a few newsletters here on Substack which focus on lit mags (news, how to submit to them, etc.) Very interesting and useful information. It's very different from here in Brazil, where there's a lot of illiteracy, lack of money and lack of access to bookshops, etc. I'm amazed at the amount of lit mags in the U.S. alone!
I have lists too when you're ready ...
A compendium of accomplishment that I will always remember as I continue writing and seeking my 3rd published story (in a small literary mag. You have become this octogenarian’s mentor. Thank you.
Edward, Do write me at <mltabor@me.com> and tell me where your stories are being published. I want to remain connected to you and your work.
This is an important question, one I've wrestled with as more and more magazines charge a reading fee. Perhaps I'm turning into a curmudgeon, but I feel that paying for postage and supplies was not the same. The understanding was that neither writer nor editor were being paid, and the playing field was essentially level. Art was the focus.
Now that submission fees have been tied to compensation for staff, it's a different kind of relationship, one that has grown increasingly unequal as the rate of submissions has skyrocketed with the ease of paperless methods like Submittable. I read earlier this year that many aspiring writers aim for 200+ rejections from magazines every year. With the typical $3 reading fee, that's real money that MFA students don't have. I can afford it, but it makes me grumpy. It feels much more transactional, especially when the compensation for publication is typically nothing but contributor copies. Many of the writers you cite grew up in a culture that fostered relationships between writers and editors. Now it seems like editors feel besieged by submissions from writers who don't even read the publications they're submitting to. Writers feel lost in the shuffle. As a result, publication is more like a Tinder date (possibly an unfair analogy) than a mutually respectful artistic collaboration. I say this as someone who has had plenty of success with literary magazines.
I view all of this differently after leaving academia. Typically I hear nothing from an editor after an acceptance. I was not even notified recently when one of my essays went live online at the Los Angeles Review. The non-exclusive contract with them allowed me to almost immediately redistribute it through Substack, and I'm certain that more people read it and engaged with it there. I've always viewed self-publishing with some suspicion, but I'm now feeling like the authors you listed above might have been better served by a platform like this. Did they need to toil in obscurity and loneliness and self-doubt to earn their stripes? Did this make them better writers in the end? I'm not sure about that (genuinely unsure). Plenty of unresolved questions for me, but I think the world has changed significantly since someone like Malamud was cutting his teeth, and even more profoundly since T.C. Boyle broke into his own. Substack has given me an important ballast against the loneliness and alienation that comes with writing for literary magazines. I'm not sure yet if it can be a substitute for that altogether?
Enjoyed reading your argument Joshua - completely agree. I'm currently reading Virginia Woolf's biography and also a selection of her short stories. I enjoyed learning that she started her own publishing house, Hogarth Press, with her husband and decided to self-publish her short stories through it as well as her third novel (and later work). To great acclaim! The landscape has changed so much since then but I'd like to think we are all part of her lineage when we choose platforms like Substack to publish our work.
However, I still hope lit mags will continue to exist and attract writers who care for their manifestos. I've even noticed a few here, too.
Ah, Virginia Woolf--yes, can we even imagine the fact that she may have needed a publishing house? But then I think that was Leonard Woolf's idea. Let me know if you find out otherwise.
Yes, you're right! It was Leonard's idea, which she embraced. And her sister Vanessa created woodcuts to go along with the stories.
They had very little money at that point and I think it was a way to also try to improve their finances by taking more ownership of what was published.
Joshua, A powerful argument. I have a short story circulating now. I remain unsure about posting my fiction here--from my short story collection _The Woman Who Never Cooked_. I do plan in the future to post my memoir _(Re)Making Love_ -- but may need a separate page to do that. I need to figure that out.
The lit mag world is still, I hear, read by agents, but it's also clear that the publishing houses are pretty much, meaning almost all, owned by Bertelsmann. So, what to do if the author is not-so-famed that Substack will solicit and pay to join?
Love this conversation. xo ~Mary
I enjoyed reading this, Mary. The thing that has always put me off pitching to literary magazines is the length of time it takes between acceptance and publication. I can never wait to see my work in print!
Terry, that problem seems to be getting even worse as readers of literary magazines are small and staffs, always subjective, and too often students in MFA programs or undergraduates. I was once the co-editor of _The Journal_ and discovered in the discarded slush pile a story by Stephen Dixon. I recognized the voice as soon as I read the first page--took it to my editor who couldn't believe he'd sent, let alone that I'd found it. The story we published later appeared in an award winning collection of his stories.
But the key is to simultaneously submit and tier the send outs. Statistics on acceptances are something like 35 to 1 though I've had better success than that--still, the process is difficult and discouraging. I do agree.
Thanks. I'm not sure what it means to tier one's submissions. Do you mean pitch to different types of literary magazines at the same time? I shall study the directory, which looks incredibly useful. Interesting that you mentioned Nicholson Baker. I hadn't heard of him until recently, when Sherman Alexie recommended his novel Mezzanine. I have borrowed it from the library, and am enjoying it immensely. I especially love the footnotes, which remind me of David Foster Wallace's work. Stephen Dixon: amazing! well done
The loss of David Foster Wallace was heartbreaking, Terry. Still worth searching for his essay "Shipping Out" and the controversy that ensued when Jonathan Franzen, his friend, did something pretty awful after Foster had died--we can discuss privately, perhaps. Tim O'Brien also footnoted in _In the Lake of the Woods_, quite stunningly.
I have a sense that we share the deep love of literature, Terry.
What I mean about tiering: One ranks the literary magazines, best or most read or pays, and sends to those first. Second round, go a step down. Worth a try, Terry.
Hi Mary, thanks. Shipping Out is one of my all-time favourite articles. I think it was the first one of his I'd read, and it's featured in a book I have called The David Foster Wallace Reader. I hadn't heard of In the Lake of the Woods, but it sounds fascinating. Another one for the tbr list!
Yes, definitely a deep love of literature. So nice to meet like-minded people!
Thank you for the explanation of 'tiering'. I'll see if I think I have something to offer them.
Your posts, Mary, ate like a smorgasbord of treats! Love this.
Thanks again for introducing me to John Updike's and Katrina Kenison's Best American Short Stories of the Century where I discovered extraordinary stories and authors like Pam Houston. I recently found The Best American Short Stories 1984. What a gem! I can't even give you a favourite as they were all so good.
Short stories are incredibly hard, like Flash, to write. Maybe I'm wrong, but shorts often rely, more so than the novel, on title and first lines to keep the reader reading.
Just this morning, I was reading about Jhumpa Lahiri and thinking I would love to read her work in Italian. Unaccustomed Earth, as well, seems to be something I can relate to.
I applaud all the incredible work literary magazines do, at times unpaid. They are a pivotal part of the writer's journey.
Again, thanks so much for posting, and in particular, this post today.
Eloquently stated, Isabelle. Hoping you will share this post and my newsletter. "Word of mouth" helps so much with this effort--joy that it is on its own. xo Mary
A fascinating roster... love the story about the guy going rogue... It's all good. Thank you!
Big xo. And send out your cool writings and stories.
Wow! Impressive list! I've heard anecdotes, but never seen anything remotely like this compilation.
That's so kind. Thank you! xo
Oooooooh, this post has opened up a whole world of exciting opportunities! Just what I needed to read! Thanks, Mary! :D
Surprising, isn't it? Thanks, Rebecca!